Clovis Young Mad Mex transcription.

 

Welcome to Spill the Biz. I’m Sarah Stowe, head editor at Inside Franchise Business. Join me as we have candid conversations with leading entrepreneurs and business owners behind some of the world’s most impressive franchise brands at Inside Franchise Business. We acknowledge the traditional owners of country throughout Australia. Repair respects to elders of the past and present.

Sarah (00:29):

Welcome to the podcast. Australia’s fast food scene has been invigorated with new brands and fresh cuisines coming into the market over the past few years with Mexican food among the most prominent. Today I am chatting with Clovis Young, founder and head of Aussie brand Mad Mex, Clovis had a previous career in the investment world, but had a great idea and decided to pursue it. He swapped high finance in the US for hospitality in Australia and ditched the suits for a t-shirt and bandana to bring his dream to life.

In this podcast, we talk about the switch between the two worlds, what it is like to develop your own concept and see it come to fruition. We talk about leadership about handling adversity and the two opposing sides entrepreneurs face success, and failure. Clovis shares his perspective on the challenges of running any business and reveals what’s next for the Mad Mex brand. I hope you enjoy it. 

Clovis, welcome to the podcast. I’ve got one burning question. What is it like developing your own concept and seeing it come to fruition? 

Clovis (01:40):

Well, it is, it is fantastic. Um, I guess for me, when people that I met or friends say, gosh, I just love your brand. I love the burritos, it’s my favourite place, I, you know, I think that is the ultimate job satisfaction. When you can conceptualise something, you can create it, you can put in the hard yards and get what you believe or dream of, uh, to manifest. And then also to have that manifest in a way that people, that you care about people you like. And, um, so it is, it is really fantastic to have, uh, to be at a stage now where this fantasy or this dream from 15 years ago is this thing that exists, not just in my mind, but, you know, um, in 60 or 70 restaurants across Australia with, uh, you know, with multiple millions of customers, it’s amazing. Um, but I think that also maybe simplifies what it’s like and, you know, I think there’s the, there’s the manifesting the first one.

I remember that, you know, the day before we opened the first shop, uh, feeling so nervous and almost nauseous having to go outside in, in the panic attack, oh my God, I’ve worked for a year. We’re about to serve our first customer, you know, there’s that stage of fruition. 

Uh, and then there’s a stage we, you get to one, you know, four or five locations and you start to make money, but you’re investing so much money there ‘cos you got this bigger vision. Um, so that feels really great, but also completely terrifying ‘cos you know, you’re, you’re kind of continually pushing beyond almost what you’re financially capable of or uh, and your skill sets. Um, and then you get to kind of that fifth, five to 20 stores. Um, so everyone is clapping you on the back and how great is this, but it’s really a tough time for a franchise business because there’s this gap between, you know, kind of five company owned stores and 20 or 25 franchise stores where the revenue model, uh, doesn’t necessarily cover the kinds of expenses that are involved. So, you know, having the vision, launching a business, I feel fantastic about and having the, you know, taking my kids there and seeing them enjoy it, that’s the best job satisfaction, but at each stage there’s all kinds of different stresses and it’s, it’s uh, it’s never just to sit back, relax and pat yourself on the back

Sarah (03:44):

And probably I would imagine different from how you imagined it to be.

Clovis (03:48):

Yeah, you, it’s hard to, you know, I like, I came from kind of an investment banking world with an MBA and I could do financial models and I kind of understood what the margins were and you know, so you take that lens and then you apply the, you know, the reality of the complexity of a food business. And it sounds like food’s simple, but it’s not simple. We import stuff from all over the world. There’s packaging, there’s training, there’s operations, there’s site identifications and store design. Um, so I don’t think it was possible to comprehend what the real life would be like of, of, of starting and then running this business today. It’s much more complicated than I imagined. Um, and that’s good because it keeps it interesting.

Sarah (04:25):

So what was it that spurred that kind of shift from the, the world of, of finance and investment into hospitality? Did you have any hospitality background?

Clovis (04:36):

Yeah, I was a dishwasher at 13 and a little barbecue joint and I was a bus boy and a waiter kind of, you know, in high school. So I had that kind of foundational imprint. Um, and I did work on Wall Street for three or four years. I thought it was incredibly interesting, but I also realized that there was some something abstract about it. You know, you buy, you sell, you do some kind of transaction, you have a profit and loss statement, but it wasn’t meaningful in the sense that you got to produce something. You didn’t get to share that with anyone else. Uh, it was, it was a commercial enterprise, uh, an economic enterprise. Um, and I was really drawn to tangible things. You know, the idea of creating something, producing something, um, almost with a kind of an artist’s desire to see and produce something great.

Sarah (05:23):

And I suppose it’s an element of theatre as well, isn’t there in hospitality that, that sense that you, you are particularly with your format, you know, you’re creating in front of a customer you’re…

Clovis (05:34):

Yeah, a hundred percent. I think, you know, creating the ambiance experience is a big piece of what the restaurants do every day. Um, and I think in that transition from call it wall street where you’re wearing a Brooks Brothers suit to wearing a t-shirt and a bandana and putting on rubber gloves and standing there and being a server and in the service of other people, it’s quite a big change, you know, from I’m a powerful banker to I’m a servant to provide, uh, food. Uh, some people don’t like that transition. I, I found it great, I loved the interaction. I loved having the two minute chats with people, Hey, how’s your day going a smile and Hey, you know, all the kind of customer relationship stuff that made it much more real to me as a human being, um, and I think that’s one of the great things about hospitality generally is that, that ability to connect with a lot of people.

Sarah (06:22):

So in a sense, also the, sometimes people kind of refer to, um, the idea of being, you know, the, the servant master, that idea of actually, um, being a leader, but actually you’re, you’re are serving either your community or you’re, you’re, you’re working to serve people that you work with. And I just wonder what your concept of leadership is like, and whether there’s anyone in business in particular or in life generally, that you would sort of point to and say, that’s someone that I think is a, a fantastic leader.

Clovis (06:48):

Gosh, there’s so many. Um, but I do think that principle of service is one that provides a lot more purpose and you feel a lot more value at the end of the day. And that’s where the Wall Street piece, you know, you weren’t necessarily in the service of others, you were in the service of yourself, uh, and or your financial outcomes. Um, and the ability to service, service deliver and provide a service is, is at a customer level, it’s really important. 

In a leadership role, um, I’ll probably, you know, my journey has been one from kind of being command and control and more autocratic to learning how to relax and, and empower and trust. And a big part of that has been this idea of, you know, the freedom within a framework. So I see my role is to really help design and curate the, the framework, the machine that the art, the, the kind of the construct, what are the tools we use and how do those tools support people to go out and then they can be their best.

That applies to franchisees ‘cos we create a system that empowers them to go out and be their best. And it applies to our support office function, where we provide services to restaurants and marketing support, um, and then creating those, so you become in some sense, the engineer behind tinkering, building the platform to then allow other people to launch and experience great success. 

Um, I didn’t answer your question. Examples of great leaders. You know, I think someone like Steve Jobs went from being an autocratic dictator to someone who understood the power of empowerment. And I think that’s one of the great things about, you know, kind of going on these journeys is you actually then do, uh, have the opportunity to really test yourself against your business and you, if you don’t grow and become a better leader, uh, the business will suffer. So I think the, um, for me, that kind of moving from autocrat to, uh, to a visionary slash coach and really trying to find ways to help people be their best selves at a management team level and throughout the support office and then down to restaurant level, that that is the leadership journey. Um, and I certainly think that’s kind of the role of the CEO and the leader in a modern business

Sarah (08:52):

And going through that transitional process, do you think you’ve learned anything particular about yourself, about how you behave in certain situations or you kind of developed a different skill that you didn’t think you had?

Clovis (09:05):

Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, patience you know, I think one of the great, one of the things that CEOs, um, need to bring to a business is a sense of urgency. How do we structure the timelines? How do we hit targets? How do we, because in human it’s, our nature is to take is to, is to settle into comfort. And you know, in, in, in the modern retail world, we need to push harder, faster and do more often with less. Um, so that sense of urgency, but how do you do that in a way that is constructive and not destructive? Um, and I think I used to just get frustrated that I couldn’t get things done quickly enough. Um, and then one of the big learnings from that was this idea around how do you take, um, big projects and then break them down into bite size pieces and really get people focused on doing the things that they can control.

Because the other thing that we, we find, I find personally, and that I’ve had to learn to manage myself, but then also with, within a business, as complex as a restaurant concept, um, is this idea that you, you really just need to narrow down your focus. You need to prioritize the one or two or three things you can work on this quarter. You really need to nail those and help the team stay focused as well. Um, because the inherent distraction of, uh, email and, and everything else that’s happening, um, will, will sidetrack you every chance it gets. 

So helping the team stay focused on the vision, that point on the horizon, that is the, the, the clear focus and what is the one thing we need to do to make a step forward this month or this quarter, or this week, that that really, um, has been a big kind of learning for me, ‘cos I kind of thought, you know, if we don’t do it all and we don’t do it all right now, we just, you know, we’re not gonna survive. It turns out you won’t survive if you try to do it all, you need to really narrow down what you’re going to do first and get that done well, and then move on to the next thing.

Sarah (10:53):

So part of, part of that whole process, I mean there, there’s never going to be a, um, a nice smooth curve going upwards, um, in the journey of business, is there, there’s always going to be ups and downs, which means a bit of adversity which might come from within the business. It might come from externally. How do you handle adversity and, and, and obstacles.

Clovis (11:15):

Yeah, it’s, there’s one of the key ID. One of the things that comes to mind as soon as you asked that question was, uh, one of my early mentors was a guy named Jim Fleming, who was my father-in-law. Um, and he kind of pulled me aside as I was thinking of this concept and said, you know, Clovis, you’re gonna have, to it’s head down BU up for five years, if you don’t work your bloody guts out for five years, you’ll never find out if this idea is a success or a failure. And if you pick your head up at your two, you’re still just gonna not know you really, it’s a, it’s a big commitment. So this idea that you go into all of these things with a, with a kind of a real, you know, I’m not gonna do for six months or 12 months, I’m gonna do this for five years, no matter what, even if it kills me, having that kind of, um, that sense of what’s at stake or how much is gonna be involved at the very beginning is a, is a really useful kind of concept I think.

The next kind of idea that pops to mind is this idea that, um, how you frame a challenge really does change your ability to deal with it. So when I was a business school, I was a Latin American history major going into a quantitative business school called Carnegie Mellon. They put me in the math camp, uh, before this term sum started to make sure that I could handle the curriculum. Um, and I worked out my mantra was this shit’s too easy. <laugh> 

Now it wasn’t easy. It was incredibly hard. But the idea that you could look at something and say, okay, I got this, this shit’s too easy. I found that even that little mental shift allowed me to then start thinking about how to do it not, oh my God, I can’t deal with this. So, uh, I do bring that kind of shit’s too easy whenever something seems like it’s gonna be unachievable.

All right, well, let’s, let’s change the mindset. And when Covid hit, you know, we had people kind of, you know, the temptation was to sit back and, and kind of curl into a ball and suck your thumb and figure out, you know, and, and begin to start praying. 

But really, um, that kind of the difference between there’s some interesting neuroscience around the difference, the difference between what is scary and what is exciting, they’re almost exactly the same biochemical reactions. So the difference is how you interpret it. 

So, you know, we had a, when Covid hit the first week, we had a big meeting with the whole company. I said, guys, everyone’s nervous, everyone’s got some anxiety around this, but this could be the most exciting, the most interesting, the most challenging opportunity we’ve had to go out and do something significant.

And this is a great chance for us to test ourselves. And let’s look at this as, you know, if, if the worst thing that can happen to you in your life is that your life is boring. Well, this isn’t boring, this is exciting. This is a chance for us to finally shine. Let’s do the best work of our lives. Let’s gear up and let’s do this really well. Um, and it sounds like lip service, but it does, it has such a dramatic impact on, on how your whole system responds to things. 

So, uh, I do think, um, talking yourself into it and the other piece of that is really, you know, this idea of action. If you don’t know what to do, just do something. Um, if you think it’s gonna be too hard, you just get into your car, you drive to work, you show up, you sit down and you begin doing it. Um, and as you do it, it, the, the windows of opportunity open up in your mind. Uh, and I, I find that if you go in with a positive mindset or frame it, or even just try to trick yourself in a, keeping a positive mindset and then start working on it, it just starts to happen.

Sarah (14:43):

That’s interesting, kind of that flip on, on, um, on mindset. I really like that the way you’ve kind of gone with that. Do you think business is a mindset or do you think it’s, it’s instinct? I mean, is it instinctive or is it something that can be, can be learned?

Clovis (14:59):

Business is, um, it’s, it’s, I guess it’s hard to say, because I think every business is so different, but I do think businesses can be broken down into their component parts. So I guess part of the way my mind works is, you know, what is each piece and how do you break it down and then are there some principles or some ideas that, that kind of help you frame the way you think about things? And the more experience you have, the more times you recognise the principle.

Hey, it turns out that, um, the reason that coffee shut down the street does so much better than the other one is that that customer service is so friendly and engaging. There’s a principle there around engagement in customers. And if you can nail that customer experience piece on a one-one basis, that’s a foundational piece of being in a retail business. Or, um, you know, if you’re, if you’re location is on the antra or off the hand trail, these are principles that have a big impact.

So you begin to build a framework of things that you’ve learned through experience that, that improve or undermine your potential success in any one of these kind of areas. 

So, um, I don’t think anyone’s born with a magic business mind. I think you are born potentially with curiosity, a little bit of humility and hopefully some kind of analytical skills to try to begin to figure it out, because you’re trying to, you’re trying to solve a Rubik’s Cube and you can’t solve it in a week or a month, uh, or even in a year, sometimes it takes five years. Uh, we’ve been in business now just about 15 years, and I feel like we’re probably 80 per cent understand all the pieces and there’s still 20 per cent that we need to figure out how to do better. Um, and I don’t think that ever goes to zero.

Sarah (16:36):

So where you are now with your, with your 80 per cent, what do you think defines the success? What is it that is your secret? If you like to, to Mad Mex?

Clovis (16:46):

We, we established some principles in the, in the very beginning, which were, um, we want the food to be really good quality. We’re not gonna compromise on quality. One of our missions or objectives was to, was to, was to transform food. So, uh, going back to 2007, um, if you wanted a fast meal in Sydney, it was really hard to get good quality food quickly. There really wasn’t a category that was serving fast, high quality food. So we were committed to never compromising on the quality of the food. Um, we always believed that that interaction with customers and making something in front of them to their specifications so they got exactly what they wanted and having that, uh, customisation combined with that ability to interact and make it more of an experience than purely a transactional kind of ‘press a button and get a Pepsi out of the Coke machine, a Coke outta the Coke machine’. Um, so those are, I think, two things that really do define, um, what Mad Mex stands for, uh. 

Do people come to Madmax because they love the experience that, you know, I think all of it kind of is encapsulated into, you know, the product itself has to be really good. Uh, there’s too much choice. And, uh, I think we do win on product, which is, which is, you know, the biggest secret. We’ve got a product that people can fall in love with, should fall in love with, and they should be proud to be associated with the brand. So those starting with a great product that customers completely buy into and then from there, all the other things kind of, you have to build around that.

Sarah (18:23):

So I wanna just ask you about, um, the flip side of success, obviously, which is failure. Um, now a, a fear of failure can really be a driving force for some people, and yet others can be really constrained by it and not can maybe take those steps to do towards doing something. They don’t take the action because they’re afraid before they start. What, what’s your experience been? I mean, have you ever been in that situation, have you learned how to overcome that or, or, or have you just always taken that step, in bold?

Clovis (18:54):

Um, I guess I’m probably more risk tolerant than some, you know, my hobbies include things like riding dirt bikes or, uh, Alpine ski racing. So I’m, I’m maybe not timid by nature.

Which is not to say that I haven’t had, we’ve had, you know, when you move from the United States to Australia, you know three people and you decide to open a Mexican restaurant and you’ve never been in a hospitality business, you know, there is a huge amount of anxiety that comes with that. So I think anyone who starts a business, um, as an entrepreneur has to accept that they’re going to wake up in the middle of the night, uh, cold sweats with a, you know, with a fear <laugh> with fear in your stomach um, and, and that is part of the experience. That’s part of the upside to being an entrepreneur. There’s no getting around it.

So, um, I think that is part and parcel to, to any entrepreneurial journey. I haven’t met an entrepreneur once yet that has, you know, said it it’s, it was just super smooth sailing. I think, uh, you know, getting up and channeling that energy, that anxiety, trying to frame it in the mindset of this is fun and easy, not terrifying and overwhelming. Um, and then putting that aside and just doing something, um, you have to get outta your head and you have to get into action, um, and action is where things happen. So, um, the, uh, there’s a number of kind of times when, when that kind of, we had, there was potentially those kind of moments where you felt overwhelmed, um, and you know, ultimately it is, it, what I’ve found is that it’s, you know, you can recognise it, you begin to identify, you get more comfortable with it.

Uh, you begin to embrace it. You, you begin to listen to the anxiety and the fear and, and those things become, um, familiar bedfellows, and therefore not nearly as kind of confronting and the, you know, the risk that you’ll be, uh, paralysed, but then becomes smaller. I think. 

Um, but my advice to, to anyone is just say, you know, that A expect it and B have a plan and that plan can be to write down a whole bunch of material, just brainstorm everything that is possibly on your radar, and then begin to evaluate them. You know, say here’s 50 things I’m worried about. All right, well, which of those three are serious and which ones should I go and focus on today? I’m gonna solve one of those problems today. And then tomorrow I’m gonna solve the other one. And by the end of the week, I’ll at least have a pretty good grip on three of my problems. And your anxiety level goes down, not by 10 per cent, but by 90 per cent. So, um, they’re just the tools you have to develop to kind of get through the inevitable, um, challenging periods.

Sarah (21:38):

So we’ve had a couple of challenging periods, a couple of challenging years with, with Covid and all sorts of other things, kind of going on. Um, for a lot of people that’s changed the way they work, it’s perhaps changed their perspective on, on business and, and their roles and I wonder whether it’s changed how you work and how you lead and what you value.

Clovis (21:59):

One of the, one of the things that was a, like an amazing positive out of Covid is that, that sense of urgency that I was always trying to deliver. Um, the team kind of got it. And all of a sudden we were doing, you know, and, and this kind of, um, you know, one team was set up to deal with all the Covid information. The other team was set up to deal with the rents and the lease agreements and other team. And then everyone just really went off and got things done quickly, uh, and we didn’t always get it to a, you know, to a 99 per cent quality. We, we recognised that in that situation 90 per cent or 85 per cemt was gonna be good enough because, um, so I think one of the great things that came from that was recognising what, what does need to be really perfect and what needs to be okay.

Um, and then trying to figure out how to give that urgency through the business. And the team just did an amazing job. I, I kind of stood back actually, um, and just watched in awe as the team executed, uh, across these different platforms. 

Um, so I think that, that, and, and interestingly, now that things are getting back to normal, I see that sense of urgency begin to kind, well, now we should go back to doing 99 per cent perfect on everything you go. Well, there’s some learnings we wanna bring with us ‘cos, um, because that’s really time consuming and, and we’re in this speed-to-market world. Um, and, and, and then certainly from a work lifestyle, um, you know, I think we’re back to the office two or three days a week, and I don’t really see us going back to four or five days a week.

Uh, and part of that is we do really trust the team. The team understands what they need to do and people are getting the work done and they’re doing good work. Um, and if not, if someone’s not doing good work, it’s pretty obvious, right? So people are using that time. So that kind of empowerment and that trust piece that goes into treating grown-ups like grown-ups and giving people the respect they deserve and giving them the autonomy and the power to execute, uh, their roles, um, is one of the kind of positive takeaways I reckon. 

Um, because two hours of commuting a day or whatever that hour and a half a day, and, uh, it is dead time. It’s good for podcasts and it’s good for kind of catching up on your Kindle, but it’s not as valuable as spending time with your kids or dropping them off to school or making sure you’ve popped into the chemist and done some grocery shops so the dinner’s ready. All those things are super important too. So as we try to help, you know, me personally, I like being able to have lunch with my wife twice a week. That’s great. Um, and I love being around and part of the dinner prep, um, and to the extent that we want all of our people to have that experience or that ability to have a bigger richer life. And if that means working from home two or three days a week, uh, then that’s a fantastic outcome

Sarah (24:36):

Just to finish up. Can you just give us a bit of a, a hit for, of what’s coming for Mad Mex?

Clovis (24:42):

Uh, well, we’ve been kind of a, I’d say leader in the vegan vegetarian space, and we’ve got two really exciting new products in the vegetarian vegan space, uh, coming to you in the first part of FY 23. So that’s really exciting. Um, we, we started doing the big burrito 10 years ago, so maybe 11 years ago. So we got the big burrito landing this year with a really special, so if you eat this one kilo burrito, you get, you win a prize and this year’s prize is super cool so I’m not gonna spoil the surprise, but, uh, in five days, um, on May 1st. So I’m not sure when this launches, but in May, that will be coming. 

Um, but then the other, you know, I guess the other really big thing is Covid slowed us down. We really had plans to grow, uh, the total number of stores in Australia, um, in FY 19 and FY 20 and 21.

And obviously that was really impeded. So we’re really, we’re looking to double the number of stores in the next three years. Uh, we’ve got a very aggressive growth plans, um, in the 10 Thousand Feet kind of franchise survey of, you know, how, how do franchisees see your business? Uh, we got the highest score on, on an NPS they’d ever seen. It was like a 74 NPS, uh, every single one of our franchisees wanted to buy a second franchise. 

So I think this idea that we’re gonna grow. Um, you know, this idea of what does success look like? You know, I guess if customers love us, that’s really important if the people who work in the business, um, love us and like working for us, that’s really important. But ultimately as a franchise business, do the franchisees think that we offer a great toolkit for them to go and be successful. That’s the ultimate success and, uh, I’m really excited that that’s working really well. So we feel like we’re on a, on a good path to be able to execute twice as many stores as we have today.

Sarah (26:29):

That’s exciting. And, uh, we’ll look forward to, to seeing how Mad Mex goes, um, Clovis. It’s been really delightful, um, having a chat with you today. Thank you for your time.

Clovis (26:38):

Well, thank you. It’s been lovely.

Sarah (26:43):

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