Sarah Stowe (00:04):

Welcome to Spill the Biz. I’m Sarah Stowe, head editor at Inside Franchise Business. Join me as we have candid conversations with leading entrepreneurs and business owners behind some of the world’s most impressive franchise brands. At Inside Franchise Business, we acknowledge the traditional owners of country throughout Australia and pay our respects to elders past and present.

Sarah (00:29):

Hello, today I’m speaking with Sonia Shwabsky, CEO of Kwik Kopy Australia. Now, although Sonia’s only been in this role a couple of months, she brings a very strong corporate and small business background to the business. We talk about the lessons learned about the pressures of small business ownership and the role of creativity, how the Dale Carnegie principles have influenced Sonia’s life and why moving to Nicaragua was a turning point with this Aussie who just loves business. So, hi Sonia. Uh, welcome to the podcast. You joined Kwik Kopy a few months ago, moving from another print business, and you’ve had quite a varied leadership career. I think I, there’s one thing that really intrigues me about your resume, uh, Niagua. What, what took you to Nicaragua?

Sonia (01:18):

Well, people, I, that’s the number one question I get asked around the world, but, um, basically, um, my husband and I wanted a change. I’d spent 10 years entrenched in the corporate world and at a young age, risen very quickly to running the, the King Gee Workwear business. Um, and I just felt I needed more experiences. So it was kind of with a sense of adventure and going somewhere and throwing ourselves right out of our comfort zones into a third world country in another language that, uh, we thought that was a good way to get out of our comfort zone. So, I mean, that it, it wasn’t more than that. I guess it’s, it was just, let’s just go for a year and see what happens.

Sarah (02:03):

That is, that’s pretty adventurous. And did it live up to your expectations? Did you find something there that you were expecting? Did it, did it shift your, your mindset? Did it change what you were doing? What, what was the result?

Sonia (02:19):

It probably exceeded our expectations. I mean, that’s why we ended up staying there 11 years. Uh, that wasn’t the plan initially. I’d have to say it probably developed me as a, as a person and as a professional. I, I say to some people, it’s like doing an MBA on steroids because you, you really have to try different things, change your mindset. It questions the thinking that you’ve grown up with growing up in Australia, it’s a, it’s a first world country. It’s extremely wealthy.

We’ve got probably the wealthiest middle, middle class in the world. Um, you have to think about things very differently when you go to those countries where people are living day to day and they don’t have enough food and they don’t have any support systems from their government. And, uh, you’ve got in inferior infrastructure and a whole lot of things.

Sonia (03:14):

So as a business owner, which is what we ended up being in that country and starting a businesses from scratch, you have to be so creative in your thinking. You have to think outside the square to solve issues that you’ve never come across before in your life. So I think from a learning experience, just that pushing you to think differently and really think like an entrepreneur, which is solving new things and problems that can be different every day. So I think as an entrepreneur, it probably was the thing that really developed in me as a person.

Sarah (03:53):

And you said just then that you, you started up a business, so, that obviously wasn’t why you went, but, but that was a side, a result of it on the side. Just tell us briefly a little bit about that, about how that came about and, and what business was.

Sonia (04:08):

So it wasn’t long after we got there. The first year was meant to just be travelling around. We travelled a lot around the world, and I actually had a sabbatical from my job in Australia. And, um, but very quickly you couldn’t kind of keep us down.

My, my husband liked talking business. We love business. And, and that’s kind of an interest, if anything outside of our, our work lives, but it’s all interlinked. So we stumbled across a business opportunity. We were looking at carbon credit projects, actually at the time being a third world country in a fourth world country. They’re very attractive places to have carbon credit type projects, particularly for the European Union.

So we were looking at carbon credit projects, stumbled across a business opportunity, which was, um, a fallen lumber recovery project, uh, in, uh, the forestry environment there, raised capital out of the UK started that business and then the financial crisis hit. Um, so we weren’t actually meant to be running that business, we were just doing the capital raise and getting the investors on board and, and going to just kind of step away and play that role.

We ended up running that business and, uh, working in that business for four years before successfully exiting that business and, and selling it on as a proof of concept to, to another party. So it, it was kind of just by chance we happened to be there when, when this natural disaster happened. And, and, and that’s how that business started.

Sarah (05:44):

Do you think that that chance and, and making the most of opportunities or seeing opportunities is absolutely crucial in business?

Sonia (05:51):

Yes. I, I think you have to have an open mind. And like I said, that’s how entrepreneurs think. And I’d have to say before I went to Nicaragua and we set our lives up over there, I probably wouldn’t have considered myself an entrepreneurial person. I’d grown up, you know, in a more disciplined environment, gone through the normal trajectory in a corporate role. Um, and I wasn’t probably considered an entrepreneur at that stage.

But then going into an environment where you kind of open your mind and you look at opportunities and go, Okay, here’s a problem. Let’s fix it. Or there’s an opportunity there. It’s not just a problem. It’s actually an opportunity for a business. Um, and then on top of it, I guess the other part to this is, you know, uh, we really were looking how we could help the local people. It was an underdeveloped country, and so we started a business that we knew was gonna help the local people who just had been devastated by this natural disaster, which we ended up doing. So it was kind of a combination of things of, you know, there is some altruistic side to everyone and, and we wanted to do that. And then at the other side of it, you’ve got this entrepreneurial business side that how can we actually help these people by creating a business opportunity where there’s been a disaster.

Sarah (07:14):

So what made you come back to Australia?

Sonia (07:17):

Well, um, we actually, um, my son was born there and, uh, he’d grown up there. He has two passports. He’s, he’s Nicaragua. Um, probably the only Nicaragua with an Australian accent at some point. But I just felt we’d been there 10 years, that wasn’t the intention. Um, it made us realize how important family is and there, these Latin countries are extremely, um, family oriented. And I think being away for that time and then in that time, my, my last remaining parent had passed away. My husband’s parents were getting older, and I just felt, look, we’ve had our great life now it’s about my son’s life. And kind of, I felt I wanted him to grow up in Australia and be around, you know, your family and your chosen family, which are, you know, the, your lifelong friends and, and their kids and all that type of thing. So it was really for that reason that we, we moved back.

Sarah (08:18):

So you, you come back to Australia and obviously you’d, um, as you said before you went, you’d had a corporate career. And I wonder you, you’ve worked across a number of, um, brands and companies you’ve worked in Sara Lee and, and Pacific Brands with the King Gee brand, which are all big names. And I wonder what it is that you look for in a business and had that changed when you came back? Were you looking for something different?

Sonia (08:45):

I think I was, um, I think because I’d had that corporate experience, which was fantastic, don’t get me wrong. I loved, you know, all the roles that I held, uh, back in my corporate days. But I think having gone out and started businesses, I’d been into smaller business then and starting businesses and, you know, getting your hands dirty and really understanding all the different elements of a business, I, I like that. Um, and I think when I came back to Australia, I really wanted to, I was looking for a role where I could bring one of the other experiences I had. When I was away was working heavily in the digital marketing sector and, and in the US market, right at the cutting edge of like technology and data and all the marketing technology that’s around. So I wanted to come back to a role where I could do a digital transformation and really look at how you can bring in all these new ways of doing things, which a lot of entrepreneurial startup businesses use and apply them to an older business and bring them up to speed with, uh, the ways of doing things.

Sonia (09:59):

So my, that’s what I was looking for in a role. I wanted to do a digital transformation and not in a big business because when you’re in a big business as teams of people and they use consultants, and I kind of wanted to get in there and do it, do it myself. So that was why, how I made the decision on the role I was looking for.

Sarah (10:20):

And you’ve, as you’ve mentioned there, you’ve done a number of different, you know, worked in a number of different departments, um, including marketing. And is there anything in particular you think that you’ve brought from each one? Is there, is there a kind of a constant, um, trait I suppose that, that you take from, from one to another role?

Sonia (10:40):

Yeah, most definitely. I think, um, and it’s really my philosophy on business. It’s, um, the, the skill that I have and the understanding how the people that you work with or work under you or around you are the key to any business. It’s the number one area that you need to be able to have the skills in to grow a business. So I would early on when I was very young, it was always something I was really attracted to. And one of the things I, I feel kind of most proud of is really unlocking the potential in people and looking at someone and saying, Listen, yeah, they might be in the right job. Let’s change the job. Or let’s make sure that we’ve got them working on something that they really like to do as well as the things that we need them to do.

Sonia (11:28):

So really understanding how you can unlock the potential of an individual and then a team getting the teams working together. So it’s, to me, it’s all about the people. And you can’t do everything yourself in business unless you’re a really smaller business and you, you’re a solo business. But you know, I’ve, I’ve always worked with teams from, you know, uh, teams of, you know, back in my King Gee days I had 250 people, um, when I was in the marketing, uh, agency, you know, we grew that business and brought on a lot of new people in a short period of time. So that was a high growth business. Uh, and you know, there was two over 200 people and it’s kind of, that’s, um, something that I, I have taken through all my days and I think that started back when I was, you know, a teenager that really genuine interest in, in working with people and, and helping them succeed.

Sarah (12:23):

And we’ve, we have spoken before, um, about the connection and, and that appeal of the family business that, um, that you are in now with, with Kwik Kopy. I just, I’d just love to hear a little bit more about what it is about that business that’s different. What, what makes the Kwik Kopy Australia model really appealing to you?

Sonia (12:49):

Um, what I love about these businesses that I guess they’re, they’re smaller in a way, but these definitely these family run businesses is just the love of the business and the brand and, and that genuine care for the people. And what I think that instills in a business, particularly if it’s an older business and you are looking to take it forward, is it just builds these really powerful cultures and or a culture that you can really take forward and work with. And, um, the Kwik Kopy business has really, I, I always thought that, but really seeing it in action because this business does kind of tick all those boxes of having a family business. It’s kind of, of a decent size. It’s been around for 40 years. Um, and it, it is a people business. So the thing that I like is that the reason this culture has been developed is because it’s been the same family owning and kind of some way involved in the business for a long period of time.

Sonia (13:57):

So if you’ve got that consistency of values and they come through very strongly, and I’d have to say a Kwik Kopy, that’s exactly what I’ve seen when I’ve come into the business, although I’ve been here two months now and I said it when I first got in here, and I just keep reiterating and I’m saying, Look, this is a great group of people. The franchisees are fantastic. Um, yes, they’ve all got their idiosyncrasies or dislikes, likes or whatever’s going on, but in general, everybody is, um, has really got potential to take this business forward. And, and, and that’s because of the values in the business and cause of that genuine care for people over a long period of time.

Sarah (14:40):

Some people find it difficult, I think moving into a family business because it can be quite constrained. Um, you know, the, the reigns can be held quite tightly by, by family members and it, and it may be that they, they’re looking to bring in someone new to bring in new blood, but they’re not necessarily really ready to, to embrace what that means in terms of kind of letting go. Why do you think it’s different, a Kwik Kopy? Why do you think it’s an easier path?

Sonia (15:09):

I, I think it’s different because the, the, the, the new board or the, I guess it’s not that new, but the, the shareholders and the board are the same people. Um, and they actually haven’t been the ones hands on in the business for some time. So it’s been 17 years, or I think 20 years since a shareholder was actually running the business. So it has been run by managers. Um, so that may have been a lot more difficult back when that happened, but, so I’m, I, I’m, I’m not actually taking it over from a founder or someone that’s hands on in the business. That’s not to say that they don’t have a strong interest, but it’s a healthy level of interest and, and they’re very, um, open and transparent about the fact that, okay, we’ve been in here kind of care taking while you came in and now we’re just looking to to, to pull back and step back and become more strategic and get a get out of the way and, and let you take over the business. So it’s been a very open, honest and and transparent process about what I was coming into and how we gonna take those steps for me to, you know, take over the business and, and take it, take it back from the, from the caretakers I guess you could call it.

Sarah (16:30):

In terms of comparing say a family business, which has got a big international name obviously in terms of the franchise brand, um, in terms of working for a smaller company. And in terms of working for a large, um, international business, you know, a big global brand, obviously the scale is different, obviously you’ve already said that the people element is really important to you. What other, um, comparisons are they, do you think in, in terms of how you can take lessons from one to the other that, that are of value as a leader?

Sonia (17:07):

I, I think, um, I guess there’s kind of a, a few different elements to that. If you look at the global brands and where I’ve worked in different, um, regions and had to work with different cultures, whether it’s the team or whether it’s the customers, um, first of all, the, the biggest difference is, you know, working for a, even though it’s a global brand, we, we are running it in Australia, so we don’t really need to think outside the Australian culture and business environment that we’re in. But having worked in overseas brands or international brands, you’ve really gotta consider the, your staff and the employees and what their environments like. And I think I mentioned that Australia is a very first world and largest and wealthiest middle class in the world. So we don’t have, a lot of the issues that you get even in the US is very different to operate in the US market versus Australia.

Sonia (18:06):

And one of the examples I give is, you know, when you go to incentivise your, your team or when you go to incentivise customers and come up with offers or whatever it may be, you’ve gotta think about their economic circumstances and their potentially financial hardships because they’re living from month month from day to day. And so the value of dollars and cents is a lot greater than you would find in the Australian market where we’re dealing with a lot of people who, you know, we’ve got a great standard of living, so they’re not as interested in financial gains and, and their salary and things. They’re more interested in their lifestyle. So it’s having that understanding of the different markets you’re in and the economic conditions that you are playing in. And so working in Australian business, you don’t have to consider that, but having had that experience, I can then also apply that when you look at people, ’cos there will be some people in a, in the Australian market who are on the breadline and it’s understanding, well, okay, you gotta put on a slightly different hat when you, when you’re dealing with them.

Sonia (19:14):

So you apply that to small business though one of the things that I found in small business that was the hardest is as a franchisee and having been a franchisee, we haven’t touched on that yet, but having been a franchisee and having a small business, you don’t have any safety net that you don’t have someone who’s gonna come in and pay the salary of your worker and things like that. So that was a really good experience for me to have outside of Australia because money is so important in those countries and the economic impact of you employing people and paying their salaries is like you are supporting a lot of families. So kind of bringing some of those learnings that I’ve had overseas and applying them to Australia so that we don’t kind of broad stroke and say, Look, yeah, we are a wealthy country, but there are people doing it tough and going through different times. So you kind of gotta adjust your thinking based on that and that would be the biggest learning having dealt in different regions in, in the world.

Sarah (20:17):

And do you think you do have that different perspective because you’ve been a franchisee that you, you’ve kind of been on that frontline and you, you’ve had to fend for yourself. Do you think that’s an important element of it?

Sonia (20:28):

I think not only just being a franchisee, that probably helps me, um, being a franchisor or understand where franchisees are coming from. ‘Cos I was one and I remember getting frustrated with this and the other, but it’s more being a small business owner. Um, and that’s one of the things I know when we are talking to new candidates coming into the business or we’re looking at different people within the network and I say, Listen, there’s one thing you’ve gotta make sure that someone has, if they’re gonna run a business when they’ve never done it before, that being able to deal with that pressure of having to pay someone’s salary when you don’t have enough money to pay it or something’s gone wrong and you can’t manage your cash flow. Managing that cash flow and understanding that cash is king and if you don’t manage that well, you’re gonna be put in a very stressful situation. That’s the piece that I always tell people. I said, You’ve gotta be prepared for that cos you’re carrying the world on your shoulders when you’ve gotta deal with that situation and it can, some people just can’t handle the stress that that brings in a small business.

Sarah (21:35):

Do you think there’s any way that you can, you can tell if someone’s going to be able to handle that? I mean, do you look at their experience? Do you look at their personality and how they handle things? What’s the, what’s the best way of making that, that sort of judgment? I

Sonia (21:46):

I think it’s looking at their previous experience and then if they haven’t had experience that you can draw from is just, is doing some profiling. So there’s different profiles that can cope with failure. There’s different profiles that have more resilience around, um, when they make a mistake. There’s, you know, some different things that you can tell whether someone’s gonna have the right personality traits and profile to be able to cope with those situations. Um, that, that would be, that, that’s probably the best. Otherwise, if they’ve had a business before, they generally will understand that. So that’s probably the first area to look at.

Sarah (22:25):

And is it on, on your LinkedIn in profile, you’ve, um, mentioned, um, you, you’ve got one comment that talking about the values that you bring facing being able to deliver results and you said, I never give up uncomfortable fearing a ship into the headwinds.

Sonia (22:42):

So

Sarah (22:44):

Yeah.

Sonia (22:45):

Yes, I, um, I’d have to say I’m fairly resilient and it kind of like I need a challenge and I need, I need to feel like, um, you know, there’s something we’ve gotta overcome and I’m very persistent so I’m, I’m one of those planners and I like to, I’ve grown up in my whole life strategic planning. I’m a big planner. I’m looking out three years ahead, Okay, how are we gonna get here? What are we gonna do? So that’s just part of my DNA I think. Um, but really taking on um, I guess a challenge or something that people maybe thinks very difficult to solve, that’s what kind of motivates me a lot of the time. And I might get a bit bored if it was a too, if it was too easy.

Sarah (23:32):

Do you think that kind of approach is something that you can learn or do you think it’s just, it’s just instinctive that, you know, you can’t kind of switch those personality traits?

Sonia (23:42):

Um, I think you can learn it because I don’t, I think, think there is certain personality traits, which if I reflect on how I grew up and how I was as a child, which I do all the time cos I’m comparing myself to my son, obviously um, it’s, it’s something that you do often have in there, but has it been developed and have you acknowledged that that’s actually a really good trait that allows you to do that. So it’s that self -awareness about, and, and it’s something actually I learned when I was working closely with Google because, um, the agency that I was, uh, running at the time, we were a Google premier partner, like one of the 22nd in the world and we had close insights to all their people, um, uh, I guess processes and methodology we had access to training and all sorts of things.

Sonia (24:32):

And one of the things that they do is they look at different things in candidates. This is when you’re recruiting for staff that they have in the background and, and a couple of, uh, professional sport. Have you been a sports person? Have you shown that you’ve worked at something to achieve? It Could be music, uh, could be, you know, and, and I did all that, and I remember looking at these things. I’m like, I did sport. You know, I used to train twice a day, 10, 10 times in the pool each week. I had to play piano even though I wasn’t really great at it, but I was forced to do it. You know, it’s all these things that you can look at grow when people are growing up and developing that show that they’ve worked at things and they kind of build resilience because, you know, swimming up and down a pool each day is pretty damn boring.

Sonia (25:18):

Um, but you are doing it because, you know, you gotta practice it and get time in the pool so that when you come to race day you’re competitive. So there’s just different things that you can look in, look at people that when they’re growing up, has that been developed? Now you could say, well have the parents forced them to do that or, you know, was it in their nature? But it, it’s pretty tough to force a child to do things if they don’t kind of have something innate in them already. And that’s that drive and, um, you know, working on things that, you know, that you, you have to have to do those types of things.

Sarah (25:55):

So in our previous conversation, um, the Dale Carnegie principal came up, um, quite a bit. And I just wonder if you could just tell us a little bit about that and how that sort of influenced the way that you work?

Sonia (26:06):

Um, you know, when you look back on your life or your, your professional career. Um, I was trained my whole life, uh, working in corporate. You’re trained all the time, management, training, coaching. I went to Melbourne Business School and did a whole program for a year. Um, you’re always getting training and development, which like I said, it’s fantastic and you get a lot of it. But one of the things that you learn from doing on the training, sometimes you go and do the training and it’s great, you do these team building things and you walk out and you might take a couple of things, but does it really change your behaviour? And one of the things with Dale Carnegie that I learned very quickly was it’s actually about really changing and embedding behavioural change and bringing in new skills. And when, um, I, you know, started the Dale Carnegie business with, with some partners in Nicaragua, uh, I didn’t know what it was.

Sonia (27:04):

I’d never heard of it. I, I am vaguely heard of how to win friends and influence people being from Australia, you know, that’s some American, you know, salesy, jargony, sort of American style training. That’s not for me. And then I, um, we were looking for a training business, we brought it down. I started looking at, I went, actually, this is really great stuff. It’s built on human relations principles. We’re all humans. It’s been built many years ago, but all these things are applicable. They don’t change. People are people and the things that drive us and the way we react to things is, is the same no matter what era. That doesn’t change over time. And the thing that I realised is at the end of the day, um, how we interact with people is the most important thing. So how we understand other people and then how we communicate in our personal and professional lives is what makes the difference.

Sonia (28:04):

It changes our lives, changed my life. And then it also changes those around you because you, you’re bringing a different energy to every conversation and interaction you have. So the principles of Dale Carnegie, you know, really stuck with me. They’re very humble, um, they’re not over the top. They’re not what I thought they were. And I think at the end of the day, it really is, it was like the icing on the cake for me as a professional because it really made me understand why I needed to work on certain things and why approaching certain situations was really important if I was to be successful in anything I tried to do. Um, so for me it, it was a big turning point.

Sarah (28:52):

Can we just turn to, to, um, Kwik Kopy and you said you’ve been there two months, so think just at the desk not terribly long. But I know that you’ve got big plans for the business. I just wondered if you could share some of those plans, let us know what we can expect to see what you hope to achieve.

Sonia (29:11):

Yeah, so, um, I was really lucky that they had already started, uh, doing a lot of, um, gaining a lot of research and insights back last year before I joined. So, um, I can’t take credit for starting this process, but I’ve come in at a really good time. So, uh, as the shareholders and the board knew needed to reinvigorate the brand and the business and really start to set it up for the future, um, it had been tracking along and probably, um, it, it was going okay. It’s been a, it’s been a very profitable business for many years. So kind of, you know, if it’s not broken, don’t fix it sort of thing. So it’s not like it was in dire straits, but they were kind of, look, they’re, you know, a next generation, they wanna set it up for the future and they’re like, Okay, well let’s come in and and have a look at this in a different way.

Sonia (30:04):

So the brand strategy work started last year and there’s two things that have made, um, that come to life. Um, probably more so than anything I can put it down to the first thing is huge amount of involvement from a lot of people. Sixty three out of the 93 franchise owners have had input, been involved in workshops, one-on-one interviews, surveys, um, all of the team in here, various stakeholders, customers, suppliers. There’s been so many people that have, have had the opportunity to give input to develop this strategy, this brand strategy. And so that’s meant that we’ve developed something that everyone goes, Wow, that really does it. And everyone feels, I, I had input into that as well and it’s not been an unnatural, Okay, here’s a new brand strategy, here’s a new brand idea and just kind of dumped it on a group of people and they’re going, Oh, where did that come from?

Sonia (31:07):

Everyone’s really behind it and they understand it completely. So we launched it at the conference, um, that was a month ago, just over a month ago. And it was, you know, as people say, it was just fantastic, the energy that, you know, in the room. We had more franchisees attend that conference than has ever been attended in the history of Kwik Kopy of probably. And as people who’d been around for a long time, was the best conference we’ve ever, ever had. And it’s because there was so much involvement in it and it’s just really articulated what was the core of the business anyway. So we come up with a great set of new values. We’re now becoming a purpose led organisation. So we have a purpose which is empowering entrepreneurs to make their mark on the world. That’s our purpose and that’s driving everything. And then we have these really great supporting values, which they’re not new. It’s how we perform as a business when we perform at our best. So creativity in all its forms and ambition, excellence and community. Um, when we’re doing all of those things, you know, that’s when the best, um, work and, and things come to life. So those two things have really meant that we’ve got a, a fantastic foundational platform to build the business on for the future.

Sarah (32:32):

Well, we will look with interest to see how that goes. It sounds very exciting and, uh, fantastic. You’ve got so many people involved. It’s been lovely to speak with you.

Speaker 1 (32:56):

Thanks again for listening to Spill the Biz. Don’t forget to subscribe and if this podcast spiked your interest in the  world of franchising, make sure you check out our website Inside Franchise Business and how to get started.